Julian Jaynes Collection, 32-37



McMaster-Bauer Symposium, 1 : Discussion



p. 300 self

"The self is not in any sense the analog 'I' which is contentless. The self is an object of consciousness, not consciousness itself. As such, the self is not a stable construction, but changes dramatically ... ."

p. 301 "commandeered by fantasy"?

"ourselves ... being commandeered by fantasy -- as happens in dreams." {More actually, the quality of dreams is more of the nature of seducing us by its pleasantries, than it is of the nature of commandeering us by any threat of unpleasantness in the event of our non-compliance.}

{\Phantasy\ 'realm of phantasms/phantoms' would be the aspect of the dream-world if it were to disclose its own inhaerent nature; but it is a rather difficult process to compell it to disclose its own internal workings. More ordinarily, the dream-constructing deities build a theatricallike set-up having much semblance to the ordinary material world; and into this set-up we may be [not so much commandeered into but] drawn into participating in, because of its seeming familiarity and its conveniences.}

{The expression \being commandeered\ could apply to persons forcibly conscripted into military "service" (or rather, "involuntary servitude"), but it would be ridiculous to apply it to the joy-resulting delight of dreaming : for the subtle dream-worlds are divine realms, although the gross material world may be a scene of misery.

p. 307 \suneidesis\ 'moral reasoning'

"conscience ... is a relatively modern notion, having began ... by Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century as practical moral reasoning, and then heavily emphasized by Calvin in the sixteenth century as an innate subjective mode of moral revelation. In the seventeenth century, the King James translators of the New Testament, ... influenced by Calvin, translated sunedeisis as "conscience" when it should probably be "consciousness." But it is not until the beginning of Romanticism with Rousseau that "conscience" becomes "divine instinct" and "the voice of the soul." It is interesting that this occurs just as poetry is beginning to turn back ... admirations." (fn. 7)}

{Strong's Greek Dictionary of Bible Words, 4893 : \sun-eidesis\ (from 4894) "co-perception, i.e. moral consciousness :- conscience."

[With allusion to /pricks of conscience/ and to /kick against the pricks/.]

Ibid., 4894 \sun-eido\ (from 4862 and 1492 {cf. "Columbus [with allusion to Columbus, GA; and/or to Columbus, OH] sailed the ocean blue in ..."}) 'I "see completely; used (like its primary) only in the two past tenses, respectively mean.[ing] ['I understood or became aware'], and ['I became conscious or (clandestinely) informed of'] :- ... be privy, be ware of."

Cognate with :- [M-W:S-ED] \sam-veda\ "m. perception , consciousness Hariv.[am`sa]"

Ibid. \sam-vedana\ "n. the act of perceiving or feeling , perception , sensation M[aha]Bh.[arata]"}

fn. 7 "See Judith Weissman, "Vision, Madness, and Morality ...," Georgia Review, 1979, 33,119-148; "Somewhere in Earshot : Yeats ...," Pequod, 1982, 14, 16-31."

M-W:S-ED = Monier Monier-Williams : A Sanskrit-English Dictionary. 1899. http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche

{Because of the MahaBharata's Hellenistic composition, \sam-veda[na]\ may be assumed to have been borrowed directly (mutatis mutandis, with Hellenic-to-Samskr.ta etymologies praesumably understood, if not instituted, by the relevant authors) from \sun-[w]eid\ : the former (\sam-veda[na]\) may therefore be applied to determine the contemporary (i.e., Hellenistic) signification of the latter (\sun-[w]eid\). Thus, (somewhat outside of conformity with Julian Jaynes's expectations) 'perception' and 'sensation' were indeed pertinent. [Without our employment of sensation and of perception, we could hardly determine whether our behavior be in accord with our conscience.] [written 25 June 2017]}

{The "practical moral reasoning", by Thomas Aquinas (a prime promoter of the "Guardian Angel" dotrine), would naturally be considered as dependent on our relationship with our "Holy Guardian Angel". Calvin, a Swiss traitor who by treachery (despite his personal guarantee, repraesented to the Holy Roman Emperor) entrapped and burned-at-the-stake the founder of Unitarian/Universalist philosophy, must be limited to exclusion from any discussion of any genuine repraesentations. Rousseau (alike unto Aquinas) is more honorable; but too habituated to figurative expressions to be very pertinent to such connections.}

pp. 307-8 bases and sources of MORAL [i.e., for MORtALs' employment] ethics

p. 307

"There is no such thing as morality in the bicameral world.

{Morality hath its source in [EU:M, p. 27] "veritable outpourings of the Divine Mind, crystalized into verbal form on their way through the human consciousness."}

Ethics and morality are things that we have to learn ... to replace the dictates of the gods."

{It is necessary that the "mystic life" be [EU:M, p. 276] "governed by voices : ... active life ... guided by them ... coming direct from God, ... the distinct interior words" which the mystic hears ... ." These are [EU:M, p. 27] "phenomena of automatic words, ... revelations which take the form of dialogue : intimate colloquies between Divine Reality and the Soul." Without such divine "revelations", neither morality nor ethics can be possible.}

p. 308

"But ... there is no universal natural basis for morality in the large conscious civilizations, because we cannot derive any ought from a scientific study {but only so long as "science" be restricted to materialism!} of what is ... ."

{From an illuminative study, via Spiritual Science, of the Divine REALITY which truly IS, we can derive every "ought"; because, there is every universal natural basis for morality in the large conscious divine civilization of Mal>akiym (Angeloi) in [Strong's 8064 {cf. 1864, the year of servitude's defeasance}] S^amayim ('the Double Heaven') [doubled to indicate bountiful benefits by-way-of bicameral blessing-of-brain-ensconced-minds]. [written 25 June 2017]}

EU:M = Evelyn Underhill : Mysticism : a Study in the ... Development of Man's Spiritual Consciousness. 12th edn. E. P. Dutton & Co., 1930.

p. 308 ergot

"ergot on cereals -- that could produce more hallucinatory activity." {"The odour and taste are characteristic and disagreeable. Ergot deteriorates rapidly" ("EBPE").} {Ergot-infected grain ["EWh"] "can be cleaned by flotation in brine (20% salt solution). The sclerotia float and the grain sinks in the brine solution." Such a high level of brackishness is praesent in the Dead Sea, thus perhaps pertinent to the myth of (B-Re>s^iyt 19:26) the wife of Lowt.; that the pouring down of divine wrath caused combustion of the cities in the S^iddiym Valley may symbolize bodily-burning sensation which is an effect of ergot.}

{If, instead of simply a derivative of Hellenic /alusso/ 'I am restless', /HAL[L]UCinatio/ be taken as a pun on Hellenic /HALUKo-/ 'brackish', then there could be a cognancy via [Strong's 4416] /melah./, [DMWA, p. 1079a-b] /milh./ ('salt') with [DMWA, p. 1080a] /muluwh^iyah/ ('the Jew's mallow Cochorus clitorius', which may be kept as sauce served in vials, and which may "lose its savour", and be thereupon "poured" from the (Apokalupsis of Ioannes 16:1) "vials of the wrath of God upon the Earth").}

"EBPE" = "Ergota, B. P. Ergot". http://www.henriettes-herb.com/eclectic/bpc1911/claviceps.html

"EWh" = "Ergot in Wheat". http://cropwatch.unl.edu/ergot-wheat-unl-cropwatch-july-8-2011



McMaster-Bauer Symposium, 2 : Response to Discussion



p. 321 [J.J.'s comment] "conscious experience"

concerning George Ojemann : "His "conscious experience" with its episodic memory or reactivity is precisely what I call consciousness. ...

I prefer to remain with consciousness as Locke and Descartes ... would define it, as

what is introspectable."

{Strictly stated, however, mind cannot think of itself; neither can consciousness examine itself.}

p. 324 [J.J.] "literally dictated by gods" {; or, only feigned to be thus, as hypocritical propanganda?}

"Many texts -- cuneiform, hieroglyphic, Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit -- bear this out. How to build pyramids, temples, tabernacles, and how to carve idols were literally dictated by gods down to the last detail."

{Most religious structures (architectural and otherwise) have been and are, throughout the world and throughout history (antient, mediaeval, and modern), hypocritically claimed to be constructed according to divine dictates -- but all such governmental claims are merely aspects of psychological campaigns launched ruling classes so as to gain for themselves admirations from the pious (and somewhat gullible) general public. In uncritically swallowing all this crafty propaganda, Julian Jaynes merely discloseth his own ludicrously extreme gullibility.}

{Persons who genuinely see-and-hear deities typically would not care to be part of any government; nor would any successful (i.e., crafty, deceitful) government care to be involved with such persons.}

p. 327 which social system is lacking in "logic"?

[J.J.] "Le'vy-Bruhl ... has been so despised by the ... Boas School, of which Margart Mead was the best known. ... . ... Le'vy-Bruhl ... set out to show that primitive peoples ... were "pre-logical."" {So-called "primitive peoples" do, however, manage to recognize when they are being oppressed by European colonial re'gimes : and it is on account of this astute recognition that they get dubbed "pre-logical" by oppressive government-hirelings.}

{Durkheim, Le'vy-Bruhl, et al. were compelled by Western European colonial re'gimes to slander and to defame the peoples of nationalities which such governments were oppressing and abusing. Scandinavian governments were not party to the oppressors' clique, so that anthropologists thence were truthful and honest, including Franz Boas.}

{Julian Jaynes was a real fool not to recognize the deceitfulness of European governments; and not to realize that, apart from Scandinavia and the United States, anthropologists in European states were all secret-police agents commissioned to spread disformation so as to deceive the general public.}



McMaster-Bauer Symposium, 3 : Panel Discussion


" " " "

p. 332 combustion of internal organs of Joan of Arc

"Remember, Joan of Arc's heart did not burn."

{"The Cardinal of Winchester is recorded as having ordered her to be burnt a second time. Her organs still survived this fire, so a third burning was ordered to destroy the body completely." ("BMJA")}

"BMJA" = "Solved At Last : The Burning Mystery of Joan of Arc". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/17/france.alexduvalsmith

p. 334 when? {confirm a date for to-night?}

[J.J.] "it is very hard to know what Psalm 42 would mean ... :

[quoted] As ... after the water brooks,

so pants my mind after you, o gods ...

when am I going to see gods face-to-face again?"

{Deities are seen "face-to-face" in dreams. The author of this one of the THiLLiyM is piously inquiring when the deities, who had not appeared in a dream in several nights, would deign to appear brookside in one again.}



McMaster-Bauer Symposium, 4 : Open Discussion


" " " "

p. 335 can anyone recognize anything while totally unconscious?

[J.J.] "there has to be some kind of abstraction in the nervous system of the bee for it to be able to recognize flowers. And the bee is not conscious."

{Whenever a bee is not conscious {viz., during dreamless sleep or while dead}, that bee cannot recognize flowers. The bee must be quite conscious in order to recognize a flower.}

p. 337 do idols really speak to people?

"The ancient Jews thought erroneously that idolators that idolators, in fact, believed that their icons would speak to them ... ."

{Eidola (idols) can easily speak to people in their dreams, whereof there are antient accounts : Aelius Aristides (AeA&ST) mentioned seeing various eidola in a fanum (fane) or in a templum (temple) in dreams.}

AeA&ST = C. A. Behr : Aelius Aristides and the Sacred Tales. Amsterdam : Adolf M. Hakkert, 1968. http://www.dreams.00.gs/Sacred_Tales_by_Aelius_Aristides.htm

{The purpose of having an eidolon (idol) in the waking world would be to induce dreams about the same. In seeking to suppress waking-state eidola, Yhuwdiym, >islam, and Protestants are really seeking to suppress faith in the divine nature of the dream-world (which was the original basis of all religion, and which continueth to be significant in African Traditional Religions and in Native AmerIndian Religions).}

pp. 340-1 why so variable? {because depending on particular and shifting whimlike governmental policies, which may depend of personal vagaries of superrich idle ploutokrats.}

p. 340

[Jonathan Miller] "if one accepts the fact that certain people "hear" voices ...,

p. 341

what one wants to know is why it is that at certain times in certain societies, such people are credited with oracular authority -- and that in other societies they are ... locked up. ... I. M. Lewis [1971] identified the ... types who displayed oracular powers and showed that in certain contexts, ... individuals could graduate from the status of ... victims to the role of prophets and shamans."

Lewis 1971 = Ioan M. Lewis : Ecstatic Religion : an Anthropological Study of Spirit Possession and Shamanism. Harmondsworth : Penguin, 1971.

p. 341 cosmic consciousness {whereof Julian Jaynes is abysmally ignorant}

"Dr. Richard Maurice Bucke ... on his book Cosmic Consciousness (1901) ... does attempt to explain ... that human consciousness is evolving and there are these forerunners who have these ... mystical experiences."

[J.J.] "Dr. Bucke is assuming the existence of a cosmic consciousness, a higher form of consciousness out in the universe ... . So-called transcendental meditation has a similar belief. Such notions to me are unnecessary".

{This intense mystical experience certainly is not merely a matter of "belief" and/or of "assumptions". Julian Jaynes never read the writing by Bucke nor the writing by Evelyn Underhill, but nevertheless he is (as usual) arrogantly praetending to be an authority on a subject whereof he is utterly ignorant.}



Consequences of Consciousness 1 : Emory University Discussion


(qu. & an. at Emory University, May 1978)

p. 353 mechanist

"One of the things we've been through in science and psychology is the idea of man as a machine and the use of the term "mechanist." ... It comes from

the medical materialists back in the middle of the nineteenth century in Germany. And ... they were trying to ... Help mankind -- with medicine. ...

{Materia medica is usually more effective at curing (or at treating) major ailments than are non-medicinal techniques.}

They believed they could get rid of poverty -- they were all socialists ... .

{The aira when genuine socialists denominated themselves "materialists" was entirely prior to that wherein the term "materialism" began to be employed to designate a system devoid of ethics and of kindliness and of good will.}

Now by the time it gets to John BV. Watson, ... the ethical motivation of it isn't there anymore."

p. 354 glossolalia

"a book by Felicitas Goodman, Trance, Healing, and Hallucination (1982), ... is one of the best studies that I know in this area. She did a study in South America among people practicing the Umbanda religion ... in Brazil ... . There were ... people that had some need for a religion stranger and more intimate than the Catholic religion. Most of them ... practiced this Umbanda religion, which is a {spirit-}possession religion. And as an offshoot of that they were practicing glossolalia in a remarkable way. ...

But ... there are people who are helped by attaining a state of glossolalia, which means to them ... being united with spiritual forces in the world tha are very helpful to them.As long as it has that meaning to them and it results in goodness and kindness, that's a kind of proof or validily".

p. 355 shamedess is (according to J.J.) an indication of lack of consciousness

"I'm talking about the pure shame society -- which is not a conscious society."

{According to this criterion, the shameless Christian society would exclude non-conscious individuals; for, it is written in the Eu-angelion kata Loukas 9:26, "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."}

Euangelion kata Loukas 9:26 http://biblehub.com/niv/luke/9-26.htm

p. 356 awareness versus "consciousness"

Consciousness is not being aware

{This would (if without further context) naturally imply that "consciousness" is, instead, a state of "being unaware".}

of another person.

{Is not this detail irrelevant?}

Awareness takes place non-consciously.

{As though an unconscious person could be ever aware of anything!!}

Consciousness comes in later."

{This statement would appear to be a non sequitur.}

{Ordinary diction would treat the two terms as synonyms. Julian Jaynes would seem to be put his own idiosyncratic use of the word /consciousness/ is the place of the ordinary use of the word /conscientiousness/ (or whatever). At any rate, his assertions and deductions would appear, at least, to be bungled.}



Consequences of Consciousness, 2 : Harvard University Discussion


(qu. & an. at Harvard University, Dec 1988)

p. 357 simultaneity of philosophers who were founders of extant religions

"a number of the first religious leaders and philosophers all lived about the same time : Lao Tzu, Confucius, Budd{h}a, Socrates, Zarathustra."

{Sokrates is a poor choice for this list : his lifespan was about a century later than the others; nor (unlike the others) did he found anything. A valid choice would have been Puthagoras, who was contemporary with the others, and who (alike each of the others) set up a long-lasting organization.}

[J.J.] "you find Budd{h}a coming just after 600 B.C., at the same time as Solon in Greece -- he lived around 600 B.C.".

{Solon is another poor choice : (unlike the others) he was (AHE, s.v. "Solon") an active politician and a lawmaker, but (also unlike the others) he was no philosopher.}

AHE = Ancient History Encyclopedia. http://www.ancient.eu/solon/


Marcel Kuijsten : The Julian Jaynes Collection. Julian Jaynes Society, Henderson (NV), 2012.